Curse

Xenex Xclame · Jan 16, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

The healer (monk) the "tank" (warrior) and the damage (the ele).

Orry · Jan 16, 2010, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

The healer (monk) the "tank" (warrior) and the damage (the ele).

Warriors are not tanks, they are damage. Traditionally Elementalists are support, them being damage comes after Nightfall and is one of the things that should be fixed. And, of course you need a healer if there is a profession that can do it, Monks have been nerfed several times to make them not be able to outheal everything.

QueenofDeath · Jan 16, 2010, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Yeah but, there's always that Yeah But! Warriors, Monks and Ele's still rule the holy trinity in PVP matches of any significance. This is what I'm tired of though because it's always the same types. I love it when I see necros as a team kick some butt and Ele's even Mesmers. Anything but sorry repetitive tired old holy trinity groups. Need more balance where there will be more Dervishers, Paragons, Ritualists as teams instead of Warrior, Monk, Ele blazey crummy teams.

Reformed · Jan 16, 2010, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

Warriors are not tanks, they are damage. Traditionally Elementalists are support, them being damage comes after Nightfall and is one of the things that should be fixed. And, of course you need a healer if there is a profession that can do it, Monks have been nerfed several times to make them not be able to outheal everything.

When someone writes holy trinity they are talking about W/Mo/E as traditional easy to understand job roles and positions. Frontline tank(s) are aggro control, the midline is where your damage comes from via casterspike and the backline is support and heals. What you are thinking of seems more like physway/manlyspike type setups where the frontline is damage and everything else is support and heals, it's not the same thing.

lord of all tyria · Jan 16, 2010, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

Yeah but, there's always that Yeah But! Warriors, Monks and Ele's still rule the holy trinity in PVP matches of any significance. This is what I'm tired of though because it's always the same types. I love it when I see necros as a team kick some butt and Ele's even Mesmers. Anything but sorry repetitive tired old holy trinity groups. Need more balance where there will be more Dervishers, Paragons, Ritualists as teams instead of Warrior, Monk, Ele blazey crummy teams.

Caster spike should be a valid build to pull out and surprise someone if they're expecting something different. Skill-less builds which require absolutely nothing to pull off effectively versus a team of far better players should not. This is the problem with blood spike.

Almost all GvG matches include a rit, and in the last mAT [ym] made the final (and only lost because of a horrendous mistake at 26 minutes) using dual paragons.

Yelling @ Cats · Jan 16, 2010, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

When someone writes holy trinity they are talking about W/Mo/E as traditional easy to understand job roles and positions. Frontline tank(s) are aggro control, the midline is where your damage comes from via casterspike and the backline is support and heals. What you are thinking of seems more like physway/manlyspike type setups where the frontline is damage and everything else is support and heals, it's not the same thing.

You are right.

One way works.

The other way is terrible.

PuppyEater · Jan 16, 2010, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

Yeah, how dare they get the help of players when it comes to getting feedback on skills and testing updates. They should just continue giving us fail skill balances and updates full of bugs.

Wacky, glitchy updates are better than no updates. Stagnation is lethal to online community games...

Orry · Jan 16, 2010, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

When someone writes holy trinity they are talking about W/Mo/E as traditional easy to understand job roles and positions. Frontline tank(s) are aggro control, the midline is where your damage comes from via casterspike and the backline is support and heals. What you are thinking of seems more like physway/manlyspike type setups where the frontline is damage and everything else is support and heals, it's not the same thing.

Except, Guild Wars is, or at least initially was, balanced around Warriors being the primary damage with casters adding to it, preventing it, or healing it. Or is the math here wrong? http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...21&postcount=1

Reformed · Jan 16, 2010, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

Except, Guild Wars is, or at least initially was, balanced around Warriors being the primary damage with casters adding to it, preventing it, or healing it. Or is the math here wrong? http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...21&postcount=1

The numbers are fine and the analysis is great but this isn't about DPS it's about what is actually meant by holy trinity. When that comes up they are talking about damage from the midline, not the front. It's meant as an oversimplification of job roles.

Del · Jan 16, 2010, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

Leave blood spikes alone my god how many times are you going to nerf other builds besides the holy trinity in pvp matches? I'm sick to death of the holy trinity matchups in pvp. You've ruined every build that can counter them from year 1 to present. It's time the holy trinity was laid to rest just like the others you've destroyed. I want to see a team of Fire ele's vs blood spikers instead of some stupid W/E using Shock all the gd time.

Because in pvp, the most skilled player should win. gimmicks allow poorly skilled players to win against skilled players.

Also, trinity? lolwut?

Orry · Jan 16, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

The numbers are fine and the analysis is great but this isn't about DPS it's about what is actually meant by holy trinity. When that comes up they are talking about damage from the midline, not the front. It's meant as an oversimplification of job roles.

Yes, but have you ever actually tried to use a tank in PvP? It doesn't work, the whole concept of those roles is flawed in a game like Guild Wars.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 16, 2010, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apathetic Tom

Because in pvp, the most skilled player should win. gimmicks allow poorly skilled players to win against skilled players.

That's a very shaky argument, because what defines skill?

Maybe other people think a spike is skill, and think it should stay.

And who are you to argue? What makes your definition of skill more valid than theirs?

Krill · Jan 16, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

That's a very shaky argument, because what defines skill?

Skill is an arbitrary concept, but there are builds that take less of it than others. For instance in HA you have builds like sway where the frontliners (ranger assassins, R/As) cycle unblockable attack skills on the same target the entire round, trappers, an expel rit and prism healers. Every component of the build has been reduced to being as idiot proof as possible. It's the equivlent of ursanway in PvE, and I would argue it's easier to play than most PvE for that matter...

HawkofStorms · Jan 16, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Orry, Reformed isn't advocating the holy trinity. He's just explaining what the term means. Neither was Xenex Xclame, which is why when he called the warrior a tank, he put it in quotation marks as "tank," because he knew warriors aren't tanks and was indicating disbelief in the idea.

The holy trinity means tank/healer/DPS as it appears in other MMOs. Players who play those other games, who come over to guild wars, automatically assume (incorrectly) that the spell caster "mage type" ele is a damage dealer, and the heavily armored melee warrior is a tank and often try to carry those expectations over to GW.

Only QueenofDeath is complaining about the holy trinity appearing in PvP (which it doesn't since tanking and traditional CC doesn't exist in GW). And even then, I don't think QueenofDeath is REALLY complaining about that. I think he's just complaining that some metas are considered "acceptable" while others are considered "gimmicks" simply because of the professions that appear in those builds, when in fact they are often all gimmicky.

Orry · Jan 16, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

I was merely stating the "the holy trinity" shouldn't be used to reference Guild Wars, at all.

I would define gimmicky if they used professions for roles that their mechanics allow but were actually designed for another profession.

For instance, using expertise to do more damage for less energy is a bit gimmicky, it should be a bit less damage, but in reality it isn't.

Midline characters dealing more damage by stacking Searing Flames is gimmicky, frontline is for damage, midline is for spike-support and other support.

Now Rangers should be able to run front-line characters, they should just do less damage than they are currently capable of, Elementalists should be able to do a good deal of damage, at touch range.

Damage should be based on survivability, energy management, and position required. Rangers are easily very survivable and should do less damage because of this, but if they are in a front-line position then they should do more than is capable at range.

Tearz1993 · Jan 17, 2010, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

That's a very shaky argument, because what defines skill?

Maybe other people think a spike is skill, and think it should stay.

And who are you to argue? What makes your definition of skill more valid than theirs?

Because coordinating a spike is much easier than coordinating shutdown / pressure, so many feel that since coordinating shutdown / pressure is more difficult, there should be a greater reward.

YunSooJin · Jan 17, 2010, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apathetic Tom

Because in pvp, the most skilled player should win. gimmicks allow poorly skilled players to win against skilled players.

Also, trinity? lolwut?

less skilled players winning against better players using gimmicks really isn't the issue. The issue is that gimmick-based play is shallow and offers little to no depth. Although the bar is set low (and therefore more people are inclined the join) the gameplay blows. Top tier players in GW will normally destroy any kind of gimmick team, unless the gimmicks being utilized are way too strong.

The argument against gimmicks is not that it blurs the line between 'more skilled' and 'less skilled' players, but that it makes the gameplay shallow and therefore boring. It's kind of like replacing all the pieces in chess with rooks except for the king. Okay..everyone can play it, but the game has no depth anymore.

Spartan Digz · Jan 17, 2010, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

Warriors are not tanks, they are damage. Traditionally Elementalists are support, them being damage comes after Nightfall and is one of the things that should be fixed. And, of course you need a healer if there is a profession that can do it, Monks have been nerfed several times to make them not be able to outheal everything.

Warriors technically should be able to tank, if tactics were at a a decent stage then they wouldn't need to use the obby tank. Warriors traditionally should be a tank, but also should have the chance to be damage as well, with 8 skills allowed that would negate any chance of people abusing this tank/dps combo.

Elementalists are support, but I'd classify them as Support/damage tbh, if the warrior was a tank in a 'proper balanced group' then that would allow elementalists to do the damage but also support other dps's for example rangers and dps warriors/dervishes.

Monks need to be able to heal, not necessary outheal everything or then you'd have people complaining over how OP monks are. Monks need to be able to heal sufficiently and efficiently, I'm not going to say how as their are far too many variables and factors to consider and different forms of monking, just for argument sakes prot vs heal.

If Anet is going to make GW more balanced, in a sense of professions being able to do the jobs that they were supposed to at the start (this dependant on what games people played before GW, or what they think should be the traditional jobs of a specific profession), then it would make the game more interesting and encourage group play, almost to the point where it mimics WoW.

Orry · Jan 17, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan Digz

Warriors technically should be able to tank, if tactics were at a a decent stage then they wouldn't need to use the obby tank. Warriors traditionally should be a tank, but also should have the chance to be damage as well, with 8 skills allowed that would negate any chance of people abusing this tank/dps combo.

Elementalists are support, but I'd classify them as Support/damage tbh, if the warrior was a tank in a 'proper balanced group' then that would allow elementalists to do the damage but also support other dps's for example rangers and dps warriors/dervishes.

Monks need to be able to heal, not necessary outheal everything or then you'd have people complaining over how OP monks are. Monks need to be able to heal sufficiently and efficiently, I'm not going to say how as their are far too many variables and factors to consider and different forms of monking, just for argument sakes prot vs heal.

If Anet is going to make GW more balanced, in a sense of professions being able to do the jobs that they were supposed to at the start (this dependant on what games people played before GW, or what they think should be the traditional jobs of a specific profession), then it would make the game more interesting and encourage group play, almost to the point where it mimics WoW.

Keep in mind the Guild Wars was initially a PvP end-game, Warriors were designed to do damage, hence they were damage dealers. They create a battlefield presence, there is a good reason people kite in PvP. Look at how powerful the blind condition is, if Warriors were not damage then would blind have to do that much?

Yes, Warriors do have some survival skills, but to be honest to be a tank you would need to use a lot of them.

One of the things that makes Guild Wars fun is it isn't a generic "tank'n'spank" combat style. When was the last time you have seen a movie set in the middle ages with a guy in armour standing in the middle of a field and balling up the enemies so they could hit them with a catapult?

There are only about two places where a tank even comes close to being needed, The Four Horsemen being the most prominent, and I am fairly certain it could be done with a group that is designed to split up, which you pretty much need anyway for Servents of Grenth.

But, again, this initially being a PvP game, tanking should not even really be in your Guild Wars vocabulary.

Gill Halendt · Jan 17, 2010, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Regina, please, have the Live Team release some form of balance update now, otherwise your thread is gonna reach 100 pages of arguments about "skillful play" and "shadow form". We're getting there already. Pretty please with sugar on top and a cherry...?